Stubborn and conservative: Those two words described our first impression of Reverend Sang Chul Lee, who belongs in the very first generation of Korean-Canadians, with his long white beard. The 87 year-old retired pastor shared with JoinTheLeaders not only his inspiring life stories but also his open-minded and progressive views with his 'extra-large-sized heart.' The following is the story of an individual who used to be the spiritual leader in the Canadian Christian society and the political leader of democratic movement against the military regime in Korea in the 1970's.
Tell us about your childhood
My grandfather lived in current North Korea during the Japanese occupation. Japan suspended the land, kicked out my grandparents’ family and forced them to flee to the further north. Eventually, they arrived at the border between Korea and Russia. I heard that there were lots of Korean families who were landless/homeless then. My grandparents’ family discovered an abandoned land in Siberia, where the Russian government allowed them to settle and they started a new life there. My father was the second son of the family and he started farming. He got married there and I was born in Siberia in 1924.
Communism started in the Moscow area and came to Siberia. When the communists came, they forced people to come together every night to listen to lectures on communism. One evening, they talked about how young people would lead the communist society and my parents became worried as they thought that the country might take their children away so they decided to flee to the neighbouring country, China. I still remember that night when my father woke us up and when I went out, I saw a horse, a cow, and all of our belongings packed up. We walked for two weeks to finally reach China. I was seven years old.
What was your life like when you were in China?
First of all, Japan had already occupied part of China. Japan was concerned about Korean people developing Anti-Japan sentiment. In order to subdue these sentiments, the Japanese government tried to group Koreans together to control them easily and taught us Japanese language in the primary school system.
I attended the school for almost three years and until grade 6. Later, my friends and I discovered another school with a much better education system so we requested for admission to a principal and he accepted us.
What would you suggest to young professionals about making decisions these days?
Don’t just blindly follow situations. If you watch and look around, then you may discover better opportunities. Following your parents’ wishes is not a very creative way of living your life. Take charge of your life. In my case, my parents were not educated so I had to make my own decisions such as the one I made in transferring to another school. They just supported all of my decisions.
When I went to school, I had a part-time job as an office boy as my family was very poor.
Do you remember how much you made then?
I think it was about $0.40 per month and I always gave it to my mom. At the time, I had a friend, who went to a middle school away from where I lived. We kept in contact through letters; he always asked me to come to his school, but I did not see it feasible due to its high tuition. After two years, my mom knew that I was receiving letters from my friend so one evening, she gathered all our family members and told me to go to the school to study. I denied her offer due to our financial situation. Then, she gave me a jar of coins that she saved from what I had been giving to her from work. We all cried that night and I finally made a decision to go to the big city to study. It was very scary.
I was able to afford the school education for the first month but I became empty handed after. It came to the point where I almost decided to quit school due to my financial problem, even after working all kinds of part time jobs possible.
How old were you at that time?
I was sixteen then. During my struggle, the principal heard about my story and one day called me to his office. After our chat, he offered me a job, which would consist of gardening, making milk, etc at his residence. So I went to work everyday and he paid me quite well which enabled me to survive. He was in fact a Canadian missionary from Edmonton, Alberta and was the first Canadian I met.
We read from your book that you had to leave your family accidentally and was never able to meet again. Could you share what happened?
Years later, I became a primary school teacher in a small town in China and I was always involved in students’ movements. When the school became a communist school due to the Russian influence, I escaped to Seoul from fear of being captured by the army. I had to be apart from my family. I was forced to. Many years later, I went back to China to where I used to live. The house was gone. Nothing was there. I couldn’t figure out where my family went. I had two sisters and two brothers. They might have traveled to North Korea. I watch the reunion program between North and South Korean citizens and I very often thought of using the program to reunite with my family. However, I used to write articles criticizing Kim Il-Sung (father of Kim Jung-il) that I couldn’t approach them. Even now, I feel bad about my parents. Although they must’ve passed away a long time ago, they sacrificed so much for me and I couldn’t do anything for them. So terrible.
Tell us how you came to Canada.
I came to Canada in 1961. There was a college in Vancouver called Union College. A Canadian Missionary recommended me to that school.
In Vancouver, there was a Japanese pastor who attended the same class as mine, so we became good friends. After I finished my degree, he asked me to stay and look after his congregation. So, I decided to do it and became the Vancouver Japanese United Church’s temporary pastor. Later, I was recommended by the headquarters of the United Church to serve long term and despite my initial rejection of the offer in order to return to Korea, I later accepted and brought my entire family to Vancouver in 1974. Starting 1976, Canada started accepting Korean immigrants and every week, they started arriving at the airport. The officers at the airport had a hard time because they did not have a Korean translator and somehow, they found me and said that I was the only person who could help out. So every Wednesday, I went to the airport and became an informal immigration officer.
We heard that you and your wife, Mrs. Kim, helped a lot of families, fed them, and let them sleep at your place during those times.
Fortunately, I was staying in a good building with several rooms over two floors. When Korean people first came, they didn’t know where to go. So I took them into my home for a few days until we found them a place. We did that a lot.
We want to move on to the topic of democratic movement. During the 1970s, Korea was under the military regime and you led a movement that was quite remarkable. What was the motivation for that action despite the risks involved?
Very difficult question. The way the Korean military government treated citizens was very cruel, and very often included killing them. Particularly, a lot of my friends were captured and imprisoned. Anyone that was popular and intelligent was faced with such situations. This included church leaders and the United Church of Canada eventually felt the responsibility to help them. When they were forming their ideas, they invited me from the beginning and they almost depended on me. We knew very little about the situation and my name was constantly mentioned because they thought that I had knowledge about the situation. They asked me to form this movement in Canada and US United Church of Canada. They started the movement and approached the Presbyterian church of the USA, then the roman catholic church of the USA, then we gathered together and we formed the movement as an organization. Then we met together and talked about forming that committee, and just unanimously asked me to be the chair of that committee.
Were you willing to do that?
I was scared. In fact, I thought that the position meant being the leader of such huge churches in North America. I had no confidence that I could be the leader of these huge churches. But they tried to persuade me that I was the only one that could carry this out. I was forced to accept that position.
At first, we began to program and persuade the American government and different types of organizations to stop the Korean military government dictatorship. They killed a large number of people during that period in Korea. I was running around to promote the opposition movement. When Chun Doo-hwan was elected as a president, he arrested all of my friends. The family members of my friends asked me to come but I told them I couldn’t. If I did, I would be arrested on the spot. Therefore, the United Church of Canada approached the Foreign Affairs in Ottawa and explained the situation, asking them if there was any way to protect me while I am in Korea. Foreign Affairs ordered the Korean Ambassador in Seoul not to arrest Reverend Sang Chul Lee when he arrived in Korea so I came over to Korea. Gosh, I was scared, really scared because all of my close friends were in jail.
After I got off the airport, three gentlemen came to pick me up and took me to their office. They searched every piece of my possession and asked me to take off my clothes. I spent nearly three hours with them and finally, was told that I could go. I went to a hotel and the hotel manager told me that the Korean CIA is sleeping in the room next to me. I was watched 24 hours. EVERYWHERE. It was sort of a scary tactic. After a few days, I realized that they would bring me in. The hardest time was when the wife of Kim Dae-Joong (former president of S. Korea) and all of the famous people’s wives gathered. As soon as I got there, the Korean CIA arrived as well but those women were so strong, cursing at the CIA shouting, “This reverend is not a sinful man”. Another time, I met a Canadian missionary in the city of Daejun and didn’t tell anyone about it but my driver. CIA would know and still followed me. Korean police are incredibly dedicated.
As you know, the democratic movement is on a global scale at this moment, in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya Yemen, etc. Dictators are stepping down. So what do you think about this movement that is going on in those areas as someone who had actively led this movement before. Do you see the possibility that the world will not have dictators anymore? In places like North Korea too?
I think it is a trend that the whole world is following now. Also what helps them is the communication system. At my time, the communication system was very poor. We didn’t know what was going on in other parts of the world. But now, they can watch the whole world system and world movements on television, so that encourages each other tremendously. It’s a development. I have an optimistic view about that concern.
What about North Korea? Do you think that dictatorship could possibly end?
China is the key. Without China, North Korea doesn’t have any power to maintain their country. But China has a long history of dictating the Korean peninsula. Even nowadays, without China’s permission, North Korea cannot do anything. As long as China’s dictatorship persists, North Korea‘s system will not change. In my opinion, South Korea could have calmed down North Korea’s dictatorship by finding midpoint of South’s democracy and North’s communism. However, Korea’s first president Lee Seung Man was extreme anti-communist. If he was a little open minded, the situation of North Korea could have changed. For example, Korea’s historical figure like Kim Koo and Kim Gyu Sik had a liberal view, unlike Lee Seung Man. They even visited North Korea on Kim Il Sung’s birthday to join the celebration. Although South and North Korea holds different political beliefs, they could have united and shared their different political views if the South Korean government was more open minded towards North Korea.
Based on your leadership experience, what would be the most important characteristic of leadership?
Leadership means not trying to lead the people. It’s a funny but when I was a moderator of the United Church of Canada, which is the leader of more than 6,000 churches, I called staffs from the headquarters of United Church and told them that the role of the moderator is mainly working hard for the spirit of the church. Administration, relationship and financial areas were not what I cared about. I put these responsibilities in the staffs’ hands, told them to look after those fields, to do the best work that they can, and to report to me what they have been doing. Because ultimately, my role was to be the spiritual leader of the church. The wrong doings of the Korean Church nowadays is that the moderator wants to take charge of everything. Even if you are an excellent leader, that’s an impossible task to take up. I told The United church that I want to be spiritual leader of the church. I wanted to pour all my strength on working church’s spiritual issue. Staffs had to go through hard times because it took several months to adjust to the new moderator’s style. However, I told them to carry on their work as they did until now. The staffs told me how comfortable they were.
Leadership is not only about focusing or trying to improve on your own leadership style but is also about taking care of people who work for you so that they can work under good conditions. That is the most important element leaders should have. If I take control of everything, I would have to tell people to do this and that. This kind of behaviour is not suitable nowadays.
Then how can we lead people in a good manner
You have to be very open minded. You need to be a person who is ready to listen to any comment even if it is criticism. No one is perfect. If someone criticizes you and if that makes sense, you need to thank him/her. You can’t be a good leader if you think ‘how can you do that to me when I did this to you?’ In most of the work fields, staff area is a place where workers have been working for a long time. On the other hand, the term for the moderator is only two years. After two years, moderator has to leave. I have always left my door open so that staff can come and tell me whatever they want to say or do comfortably. Having an open heart for your own people is an important manner that leaders should possess.
In your autobiography, you mentioned about the “Extra Large Sized Heart”. Could you tell us what you meant by the “Extra Large Sized Heart”?
One day, one church invited me to do a sermon for their congregation. It was nighttime and there were about seventy people sitting around to listen to my sermon. Usually when I go to churches to preach, I do thirty minutes of presentation and leave the end open for questions if there are any. When I asked the people there if they had any questions, one man who sat at the very front row raised his hand high and said, “You were not born in Canada and you came to Canada not so long ago. But you became the moderator of the largest and most powerful church, The United Church of Canada. How did you go up to that position?” I never expected that kind of question. I didn’t know what to say. But something flashed through my mind, so I spoke. “There are three kinds of talents needed to be the moderator of the church. Number one, he has to be short. Number two, he has to carry a nice beard on his face. The last one is very important. He needs to carry an extra large size heart so that he is able to embrace everybody.” When I finished answering his question, he stood up and walked out of the church. I didn’t prepare that kind of an answer because I didn’t expect that kind of a question. I don’t know how I managed that situation.
Do you have any final advice for young people? Young people as in people in their twenties and university graduates, who are freshly starting working right now. What kind of message or advice would you like to share with them?
Well, I have three daughters. They are all married to non-Koreans. They have wonderful family lives. One evening, when they were still teenagers, one of my daughters told us that she has a boyfriend. My wife and I told them that we were born in Korea and that we grew up surrounded by Korean culture so we told them that it is our wish for her to have a boyfriend or marry someone who grew up in the Korean community. One day, my daughter brought her boyfriend and he was not Korean. So I just went into my study room without any response. A little bit later, my daughter came in and said, “Daddy, when you were in Vancouver and preached to congregations, I was proud of you for preaching three times a day in different languages. Your sermon was great. You told them how to love everyone although we all look different. But does going out with a non-Korean guy bother you that much? “I was shocked. I couldn’t say anything. She was right. Few days later, she brought her boyfriend again. He bowed to me and asked me if he could marry my daughter.
I have three daughters and I officiated all three times at their weddings. After they got married, we had a reception. My son-in-law entered the reception hall with his wife, both wearing Han-bok (Korean traditional clothes). All of my church congregations were excited.
My first son-in –law is Estonian, second is British and third is Italian. Everyone has their own kind of cultural sentiments. Everyone has their own racial discrimination from their own points of views. However, seeing my daughters’ marriage life, it has been a beautiful experience. They harmonize well and although they are from different backgrounds, there is no conflict. People should not discriminate each other by race, but they should instead see the inner beauty and try to embrace other’s culture and difference. This is the message I would like to share with young people.
About Rev. Sang Chul Lee
1945-47 Elementary school teacher in Manchuria (China)
1956 Hanshin University (S. Korea)
1961 Masters in Union School of Theology in Canada (S.T.M.)
1964 Graduate School from the Ecumenical Institute (Switzerland)
1979 Honorary Doctorate in Theology, Victory College (Canada)
1949-61 Missionary, pastor at the Presbyterian Church in the Republic of Korea
1964-65 General Manager at Christian Academy
1965 Ministry at Stevestone Church (Canada)
1967 Ministry at Vancouver Korean United Church
1968 Ministry at Toronto Korean United Church
1985 President of the United Church of Canada, Toronto Chapter
1988 32nd Moderator of The United Church Of Canada
1992-98 Chancellor of Victoria College at the University of Toronto
Interview Date : March 19, 2011
Interviewers: Jooseok Lee, Kevin Kim, Joseph Kim
Photographer: Gerald Law
Editors: Phil Kim
The views expressed in the interviews are not necessarily reflective of JoinTheLeaders' opinion.
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